The parallels between October 2000 and September 2007
Then , it was a young team led by a young captain playing in a new tournament format in Africa.
Now, it is a young team led by a young captain playing in a new tournament format in Africa.
Then, India's last three games were against ( in order) Australia, South Africa and New Zealand. India beat Australia and South Africa and lost to New Zealand.
Now, India's last three games have been/are against ( in order) New Zealand, England and South Africa. India lost to New Zealand and beat England and South Africa. They play Australia next.
Then, it was the batting and fielding that caught the imagination of a country. Nothing much has changed now.
Then, it was Yuvraj Singh,his nerveless 84 against Australia and the Michael Bevan run out that launched a career. Is it Rohit Sharma's turn now?
Friday, September 21, 2007
Eerie
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44 comments:
What is eerie Homer???What are you talking about??
My apologies Chandan - I hit the publish button before I had anything ready to publish :)
Cheers
Okay now I can see. Hasn't this been just 3rd or 4th instance in which both India and Pak have qualified for semies??
Chandan,
1985 and 1987 are two instances that I can recall on the top of my head when India and Pakistan have qualified for the semis in multi lateral tournies ( barring the Asia Cup and tri lateral games)
Cheers
And in 1985, both went to the final, and in 1987 both failed to get to the final.
And in 2007, both went out in the first round.
Can Rohit Sharma be the next Yuvraj Singh in the indian cricket except for his flawed genius ?
I hope not Homer... that was following match-fixing for one, so there is no parallel there.
This is a relatively successful senior team, and the seniors are not playing by choice...
And that captain lost more than he won in ODI cricket. After Dravid's record, if Dhoni emulates Ganguly, that will be a step backwards.
Tubbyy,
Hope he does :)
Cheers
Kartikeya,
I was just focussing on the series itself, not the prelude to it nor the post script :)
Cheers
Kartikeya
Ganguly lost more than he won ? Are you serious ? I dont think so. He won more games than he lost, and besides just numbers his contribution lies in much greater perspective, given he instilled the aggression in the team. And moreover the likes of Yuvraj, Kaif (no matter he is on fringes), Harbhajan, Sehwag, Pathan, Dhoni, RP Singh etc etc all prospered under him and were fought hard for the places in the team by the 'that captain'.
The never say die spirit, for whatever time it was/is active in Indian cricket is all Ganguly s baby.
Now thats upto you if you wish to look at it in a positive way, being a Mumbaikar,its hard to look at Ganguly with a supportive view for you.
For the erstwhile India, Ganguly remains the greatest skipper India has ever seen, yes in both forms of the game.
Tubbyy,
What does Mumbai have to do with this and what does Kartikya being a Mumbaikar have anything to do with anything?
Cheers
Tubby.... Ganguly as captain against good opposition (the top 8 teams in the ICC table) has a 45-61 record in ODI cricket. Yes India did lose more than they won in ODI cricket when Ganguly was captain.
Ganguly was the face of shift triggered by BCCI - through the appointment of Wright (thanks to Dravid and his tenure at Kent) and spending more money on the team.
I agree that Ganguly was a terrific skipper and he brought cricket back from the dead from match-fixing.. but that fact remains that he had 45-61 record against good opposition in ODI cricket. (By contrast Dravid was 35-32 against good opposition)
I like Sourav Ganguly - but thats besides the point.... the numbers are what they are. Ganguly was captain from 2004 - 2005 and from 2000 - 2002 you know. And he did average 17.66 with the bat in that great series in 2001 which was won by Harbhajan, VVS, Dravid and Tendulkar.
And i'll tell you how i see things as a Mumbaikar.... as a mumbaikar i know that silly things like "killer-instinct", "never say die", "fighting till the last man" etc etc which are merely constructs of an ignorant press don't win cricket matches. Good bowling, good batting and good fielding (probably in that order do).
In Test Cricket under Ganguly, India produced a 5-9 record against good opposition away from home. This was a HUGE improvement over the Azharuddin/Tendulkar eras. At Home he was 7-3 (not counting Zim) - which was about the same as what Azharuddin achieved at home (Azharuddin achieved a 12-4 record at home not counting Zim).
Dravid won more than he lost at home (3-2), and overseas, he had a 4-4 record (not counting Bangladesh). Dravid sadly won't be captain anymore.
Those are the numbers. Now, you could argue that numbers mean nothing.... but i would disagree with you there. At the end of the day, the point is to win and value is measured in terms of wins and losses.
By contrast, Tendulkar failed completely as captain because India lost way more than they won under his leadership. If i had to rate the last 4 Indian captains, id have
1. Dravid, Ganguly
3. Tendulkar
4. Azharuddin (and he would be at the bottom of any list simply because of his involvement in Match fixing)
Thats how i see it as a very proud Mumbaikar.... and quite frankly i don't give a damn as to what you make of that.
Same here KD, i dont give a damn to what you view or write about the team. What you see is one sided view or its like you dont like to see the other view. You view Ganguly in a numbers perspective, whereas his contribution lies beyond that. the fearless approach you saw today in win over Australia (a win over champs is a win despite whatever format) is Ganguly s creation. Yeah ?
And being in this part of world (Mumbai and close to mumbai) I have seen how crap people debate here about the team and how good they boo their own great little master. And i m not generalizing to the whole city. i m talking about ppl i encountered.
You sound uber ridiculous when you read those closing lines of your comment. Thats not the way discussions are carried out. Thats an arrogance, a rude arrogance.
Unfortunately I dont view Indian cricket as on states or regional teams. I see them as 11 good players who are best than any other player in teh country. Lobbyism, politics is beyond my cup of tea.
I like Dravid and Ganguly same as i like Tendulkar. Perhaps Tendulkar a bit more for his achievements. Not cos he shares same language as mine.
That tendency to frame players in regions might be your fore, and that reflects in ridiculing MSD as skipper.
I dont wish to confirm your thoughts on my perspectives. Cos i am not a pessimist. And yes blaming Azhar for match fixing is ridiculous yet again. Smell a starbucks coffee man. You need it badly.
And the reason why Tendulkar failed was not becos he dint have leadership abilities, but it was for the team he got and his inability to get the team he wanted.
Numbers dont pose entire picture. Got to look beyond numbers too.
Homer,
Mumbai has got nothing to do with it or even with this arrogant guy Karthikeya whatever. He comes across as a stubborn dude who forms his own opinion on form of region of players. Example : Backing Agarkar. Just cos he is a Mumbaikar.
Thats my problem. A bad player is a bad player and a good one is good, despite from whatever region he comes. Even if he is son of a pan stall owner (Joginder) or a wannabe truck driver (Harbhajan) or a Pathan, the quality is beyond region. Thats my point, nothing else.
Sure Tubbyy, and I agree that a good player is a good player and a bad one is bad - but what defines good and bad?
Joginder Sharma was extremely unlucky in the England game in my opinion with the catches being split off his bowling. Someone else will look at the runs he conceded and state that he is not worthy of the India cap.
We all have perspectives and that is the beauty of it all isn't it ?
Cheers :)
Talking of Jogiya (as he s been reffered in the media), he was unlucky to have catches dropped and all that, but for the other balls he went for 57 in 4 overs. And today he went for 31 in 2 overs.
Not good enough. Had it not been Sreesanth today, India would have lost.
Numbers dont always pick up the true picture. If in a high scoring game, some spinner ends up with a figure of 0/50 in 10 overs when all others are going for 70s and 80s and taking 2 wkts, then diff ppl wud hv diff yardsticks to measure good and bad.
Yeah right... and suggesting that im biased because im from mumbai isn't arrogant?
Jeez man... the whole point of debating is that there are two different positions. If you start of accusing people of regional bias, then this is the sort of thing you're going to get in return. Don't expect anybody to be nice to you after that. People will either ignore you, or they'll get back at you, and most won't do it with as many facts and as much decency as i have.
Go to my blog and read the latest comment on my latest post.... its anonymous (no surprise there), and it's eerily along the lines of your comment. I hope you didn't write that... i don't think you did. :)
Im not going to say much more about this... sorry about this homer..
KD, if I write, then I would write it on by my name. And if you wish to carry on, then come down to my blog. link is right here on this space of Homer. That way i would get few more hits too. :))
I wont write anonymous or by crap names. Hope tht helps. Did i go for regional bias ? hah :)
If i did, then i shud hv rooted strongly for a dud like Amay Khurasia or a gagan Khoda. Or even narender hirwani or a Rajesh Chauhan.
And dint the other blogger take you apart for being too judgemental about Sreesanth or Yuvraj ? Any more instances you want ?
Homer,
Dont wish to spoil this space with fights with this kiddish dude. Apologies for the same.
Ok... im glad thats settled then...
Sure.... lets exchange links... that way we can both get more hits. :)
I didn't say you had a regional bias, i said you accused me of having one. I refer specifically to this line in your comment:
"Now thats upto you if you wish to look at it in a positive way, being a Mumbaikar,its hard to look at Ganguly with a supportive view for you."
By the way, i did respond to that blogger... :)
Tubbyy, Kartikeya,
As long as the discourse is civil and the discussion cricketing, I have no issues.
Now that we have established that the only one flying the Mumbai flag here is me, can we move on to discuss today's game :).
Cheers :)
Can it get better than today s game and can it be more than a India - Pakistan final in a "World Cup". Trust me the India has gone crazy, the entire media which went for the heads of same Dhoni who had 2 ducks in WC, is now praising him and as usual baying for seniors head.
A kinda war is on with Pakistan as per the media back home.
Ah.... the moral high ground from Homer..... :D
Tubby.. thats precisely why injecting a dose of realism.. is a good thing in my view. Even if only 40-50 people see it every day.
Tubby seems to be quick on the "regional" trigger.
One of the reasons why kids from other states are making it to the Indian team is not becuase of Ganguly, it is because Ranji Trophy has moved away from the regional system. And to call someone "Mumbaikar" because they back Agarkar sounds childish to me. I am a proud Chennaite and I will say that Agarkar has been hounded by everyone - yes he has tended to be profligate, but he has been India's leading if not the most consistent (yes consistent) ODI bowler for India the last few years. You don't get to 250+ wickets in ODIs in 190 games by being bad. This despite being constantly on the watchlist is definitely an achievement. Agarkar has never been given his due - he may not be a great test bowler, not even an average one, but he definitely is a very good ODI bowler.
Tubby, when you argued with me the other day you said "I know my TN cricket history better than you" and then claimed the only decent cricketer TN produced is "Chandra". You never cared to explain which Chandra you were talking about and I'd like you to explain to me which Chandra this is. I let it go the other day but it seems to me like you get on some non-existent moral high-horse claiming you are not "regional" and accusing all and sundry about their regional biases and assuming superior knowledge of cricketing history. I'm calling you out on this and I'd like to know what your answer is.
Homer, Kartik,
Based on Joginder's performance so far, don't you think Agarkar should return for the final? I mean Agarkar had one bad over in both games but he was quite consistent in the other 3 overs giving away less than 20 runs in 3 overs both times and also had catches dropped in both games. Joginder gives away runs in ever single over and he looks cannon fodder most times and I have a feeling Agarkar will be back for the final. Thoguhts?
Notice the stats and I find it unbelievable that Dhoni has only one dismissal in the entire tournament so far!
Prabhu, that proves your ignorance. Chandra as in Bhagwat Chandrashekhar. :). Hollow drums make loud noise. And thats a perfect example.
What else do you want to see of Agarkar ? Sharma is better than Agarkar any day, cos he would try and bowl within his limitations.
And if Agarkar has got 290 odd wkts in 192 ODIs, then we owe him a thanks and a good farewell. May be a momento, but cant risk him in final. That too of a world cup.
As seniormost pacer inn the country, if he is not the spearhead of the pace attack, then its a shame for him. And if he doesnt know how to bowl tight line or contain runs and bowl consistently well after 9 yrs of experience, then something wrong with him and we have had enough of him. He is no Kapil or Srinath. Who needs him when RP, Sreesanth and Pathan are bowling well.
If Agarkar seems a decent bowler to you then form a book cricket XI and play him in it, but the team doesnt need him.
And you being a proud Chennaite, you dont know about Bhagwat Chandrashekhar ? Pity dude. I d rather not get in argument with duds like you who scream high but are low on substance.
Put up a logical debate mate rather than ranting regional aalap.
Peeps, I never boast of victories - quite modest am I about it usually. This one is something I can't let go though....
Ah,sweet victory...tastes sooooo goooddd
Full name Bhagwat Subramanya Chandrasekhar
Born May 17, 1945, Mysore, Karnataka
Current age 62 years 129 days
Major teams India, Karnataka, Mysore
Batting style Right-hand bat
Bowling style Legbreak
Tubbyy, please read what you intended for me to yourselves loudly please.......
Tubbyy time to find a new nickname cos with this nickname, any time you post on this blog, people will remember of this episode....
Prabu,
Can we not get personal and keep the debate to cricketing issues please.
Cheers
Homer,
Sorry man! Hopefully things would quiten down now. I certainly won't say much anymore on this...
Prabu
So you caught wrong footed. If Chandra was not from TN, then no credible cricketer from TN has played for India then. So in a way your harping sounds logical. Keep doing.
And I aint changing my name. I wanted to trap you and there you are. So have a life. And have some good cooffee in the breakfast. If you want to carry on this crappy discussion, tubbyszooter.blogspot.com. Come here.
Prabu.. man... you ought to have been warned :)
But yeah.... if Joginder is the replacement for Agarkar, then i'd go with Agarkar any day. But i think the argument is that the true replacement for Agarkar is Irfan Pathan.
In such an event, would you rather play batsman in Joginder's place and rely on Sehwag and Yuvraj to bowl four overs.
Heres a thought - open with them and get they out of the way - two overs each.
Yeah right, why not give Agarkar a final chance and by rarest of chances if he comes good, then not only India wins, his name comes down to a world cup winning team and then no matter if he plays again or not, his name would be taken with the saem breath as we do for the 83 winners.
And if he does play well today, then he wud come back for the ODI series against Aussies too 4th odi ownwards.
Well done homer!!!
as they say "when the debate is about WHO is right rather than WHAT is right, then never debate..."
BTW, there's is unfinished discussion...
>>>>>
Homer said...
straight point,
we still dont hold our catches as evidenced in the England game - there is plenty of scope for improvement and the question remains as to whether what was seen in the shortest form of the game can be replicated in the longer versions.
Cheers
>>>>
after england we did caught and fielded well against SA and now AUS...
And specially about your remarks of replicating the same performance in longer version...
but the point is, homer...how would you test the water...how without giving them chance on longer version one would conclude that whether it will be replicated or not...
we all know what we are gonna get when our "seniors" will be back purely in terms of "fielding and running between wickets" but we surely know what we will get with these youngsters...
lets give them some space to unwind (specially dhoni yovi combo) and now thats momentum and results are with our young team then it will be easy for selectors to sell their ideas to public than otherwise...
To put the blame of the fielding woes on seniors is horrible. Who were the usual culprits in the England tour ? Powar he dropped catches, let the ball slip down his belly, RP Singh made a mess of the catches, Agarkar as usual dropped catches and so did Munaf Patel.
Now the big 3 might have dropped a catch or 2 here and there, but to blame all this on the seniors is harsh.
About running between wkts, who all are running hard ? Sehwag and Gambhir, Uthappa and Yuvraj, they are part of the ODI team that lost the series in England too rt. Karthik, who took the blinder of catch against SA, dropped sitters in England and of course in the Lords test.
So there are the same culprits who did sin in England, now they go for redemption here in SA. Where do seniors come in picture ? Rahul Dravid and Tendulkar are the safest bets in slips, aint they ?
Sachin Tendulkar is amazingly fast runner between wkts, though Ganguly isnt. Dont forget that Ganguly was India s best batsman in the England series and had Tendulkar not got few umpiring blunders, he would have got at least 6 hundreds more.
All this talk of young legs and fresh outlook is all crap. Who exactly barring Rohit Sharma is young and relatively unknown in international circuit ? Sehwag , Yuvraj are 7 years, Harbhajan 9 years, Dhoni and Gambhir 3 yrs, Pathan 4 years, RP Singh, Sreesanth 2 years, karthik 3 years, Agarkar 9 years (lol), Joginder Sharma (3 years) and Y Pathan is yet to make his debut and Chawla dint play a single game.
Who exactly are young on experience level ? 3+ years and about 80 ODIs doesnt count for young this days in excessive dose of ODIs and Tests.
Dhoni, besides being himself, is a convenient amalgam of the best of Ganguly and Dravid as captains. So, in time he'll satisfy all.
I'd be happy to see Rohit being just himself...The Mumbai Mamba or the Mamba from Mumbai (take your pick) is what I choose to call him.
tubby
you interpreted it in extreme manner...in no way i am putting blame on seniors only for fielding or running between wickets...
what i am trying to say that it can not be coincidence that we are suddenly fielding well...or running like hell...averaging one run out per match (except AUS match)...
my point was how we are assuming that they will not hold for 50-50 based on what calculations/facts...
i would like the same set of peoples to play at least couple of games at home to see how it goes in longer version...
is it too big for asking???
The point is correct, but Test debuts are never made in big numbers. And if we thought Yuvraj wud make it to the test team, then VVS Laxman has hit sparkling 100 and a 74 in Lancashire game vs Sussex, though it lost the game by 24 runs.
And if you could precisely name people who could play in the Test matches from ths T20 team ? Aint most of them playing or played the Tests ? Sehwag, Gambhir, Yuvraj, Harbhajan, RP, KKD, Pathan, Agarkar, Sreesanth and the skipper have played tests. Rohit Sharma would play sooner than later. Joginder and Yusuf Pathan wont play Tests and Chawla is injured. Now when India plays Pakistan at home, all this players plus Zaheer, 4 biggies and Kumble would take the field.
And where exactly is the opening ? You mean to say on success of one tournament we dump the players with experience of 139, 116, 99, 118, 84 test matches ? And whom they are pitting against ? Pakistan ? A home series loss would incur what we all know.
Unfortunately Tests are not experimenting ground, we need solid technique and skills to last 5 days. T20 success cannot be converted to Tests.
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